Mr. Bannon,.. thanks for being here at this 

undisclosed location in Texas.

 It's Steve. 

Steve Steve. It's good good to have you here, 

Thanks for being here, 

Glad to be here.

 You know you're here very specifically to talk with me about something that you and I study very very intently and it's China and I'd love to just start right off the bat with asking you, what do you think China's true intentions are in kind of their, in their grand strategy.

What is their grand strategy?

Their grand strategy is very simple it is to be a hegemonic world power. I mean you see through one be lt one road you can see through made in China 2025, you can see through everything they're doing in their strategy of being like the East India Company and sub-Saharan Africa, what they 're doing the Caribbean now, what they're doing in Latin America, the economic war, that all what we call all forces of government, right all areas of government focus on the economic war against the United States, their military buildup, they're basically trying to close the South China Sea.

It is the most geopolitically ambitious strategy.  we were ever seen. let me be very specific. The three great theories of geopolitics, you've got McKender's theory of the Asian landmass,  you have Mahon's theory of cutting off the choke points of the world's oceans, And you have Speakman's theory of keeping your enemy off of the Asian landmass 

The Chinese are the only power in world history to ever try to do all three simultaneously, You know, Napoleon and Hitler and others tried to do the Eurasian landmass, others the British and the American empires of British Empire and the American you know system we have today is built off Mahon's naval strategy, and then Speakman is one from the, from the earlier 20th century.

What China is doing is with One Belt One Road trying to basically connect the old Silk Road all the way up to Italy. We saw in the paper today the Italian government the the guys in the five-star de Maio came back from Beijing. They had a huge thing about hey we want to end we want to end the One Belt One Road in Italy Marco Polo essentially left. 

We had a vote this week in the Maldives which really rejected what they're trying to do in the Mahon's strategy of taking all the naval bases and choke points throughout the world and then Speakman, what they're trying to do is force the United States which has been a Pacific Power off of the landmass through what they're doing the South China Sea, and what they're doing around Taiwan.  I said they want to push us back to Guam. 

So listen, they're the most, people have said for years to kind of cover this. A lot of Wall Street and City of London and Frankfurt crowd have kind of said oh well, you know, they're not territorially ambitious. They've never been an expansionist power.

Well they're a geopolitically expansionist power, and it's quite extraordinary.  What they 're doing and doing it at the same time.

And do you think that they're kind of, let's say their newfound economic greatness or their perceived greatness post financial crisis? They always believed they were kind of a second rate power financially going into 2008 and the world seems to believe that they they were the engine of the world's growth from 2009- 2018. Is it is it that economic growth that they build their geopolitical assertiveness on in your opinion?

Okay listen I think it's the you know since time immemorial the the access to the Chinese market kind of this mystery the Chinese market has always drawn in the West right whether is the British coming there at first with the East India Company or later the the China you know the China schooners from the from the United States right the China trade.  I was always this thing about China what we've seen and I happen to believe that the Chinese economic system is built on a house of sand.  

And I think it's going to lead us to a greater financial debacle than 2008 ever was in the same culprits the exact same culprits that led to the financial crisis in 2008, the investment banks the commercial banks the hedge funds the government entities, right the same elites that led to that financial crisis and got bailed out and had no responsibility no accountability have been the same exact actors that have exacerbated this situation in China.

And so yes the reason the world's elites, the party of Davos, the people on Wall Street, what I call,the IR Department of China. which are the investment banks particularly Goldman Sachs and some commercial banks the lobbyists for China which is the basically the 25 or 30 largest corporations that deal in China today their lobbyists in Washington DC.

These are all about the big private equity guys like Schwartzman. these guys they're all going to have to be held accountable for what went on in China what China was able to do in basically coordination with the elites in the West was de-industrialized the industrial democracies of the West both the Europe in the United States that's why brexit in 2016 are inextricably linked. What it is is the exporting of Chinese overcapacity and Chinese deflation in basic industrial goods. and so China has and from the Chinese point of view has been quite  brilliant .

They've essentially taken 350 million of their people from kind of working poverty to middle class and 400 million people from abject poverty to working poverty. So essentially two-thirds of their of their population because their population I really think is closer to 1.3 or 1.4 billion than what they say in 1.1. So what they've done is heroic in 30 years okay, from from a from a strategy point of view, but that has been exacerbated by the elites in the West who basically kind of finance it and brought it along it.  In fact what drop the recent Trump was I think so special he said hey this is not the way the world has to be. it can be very different we've basically financed the rise of China.  We've built China and while he heard for years and what you heard for years is no this is the what I call the

second law of thermodynamics or this is a immutable law of physics the rise of China and what Trump says no. this is through human agency.  It's the commercial banks the investment banks the 

corporations the  kowtowed  to the Chinese regime and one thing I want to make sure how I get from front this is not about the Chinese people. I have been.I served as a naval officer over in China in the Western Pacific in the 7th fleet on a destroyer in the late, of mid 70s,  I think. 76 77s first time I went to China I've been involved in China virtually all my life. I've owned businesses over there.  I've lived in Shanghai for a while in the French Concession. 

I have a great not just admiration but a deep love for the Chinese people. In fact they have a saying over there called old hundred which is basically the common man because the hundred last surnames in China so old hundred names essentially

the deplorables, right? Those in the old hundred names is a sense of common decency. The grit the  determination what they've been through as a people is nothing short of heroic. 

What we have, the problem we have is we have a totalitarian regime of the Chinese Communist Party,  and quite frankly the leadership the the elite 

leadership of the Chinese communist party that are really in business with the party at Davos, which is no kind of scientific engineering managerial 

financial cultural elite,  that I say kind of emanates from the from the World Economic Forum in Davos, but really is in London in New York Washington DC Silicon Valley. right etc 

And do you think do you think the way that they've ingratiate themselves into let's say the Davos man as is commonly referred to the way that they've gotten there is, Is it through economic coercion?  Is that is it through investing in our universities our think tanks our lobbyists as you said, and our corporations and even the people that are US citizens looking to make profits in China. Is that how they control that narrative? And how do they get there?

And Let's go back to in one week in January 2017  when we had two seminal speeches.  Okay we had the Davos speech from President Xi, okay which was a  high Hosanna to globalism.  Yeah and it was to me repulsive repulsive how the mainstream media and Davos man just sat there and and bought it all, and said what a great leader, what a great humanitarian, what he's what he's going to lead us through about climate, you know on the world's environment, what he's going to do you know for globalization, or for the economy.

And then you saw Donald Trump's you know inaugural address was, I think three days later and

what  he said. hey, we're getting back to the nation-state, and America is going to start to focus on our sovereignty and other nations to start thinking about their sovereignty but this globalization

of what's coming out of Davos it's stripped our sovereignty from us and we're gonna reassert that and two years later which happened this week was Mike Pence's speech a bout the new strategy of

the United States. 

 It happened last night.

It has really been going along for quite a while, which is now kind of engaging China right an engagement with China but not like Henry Kissinger and not like this acidities trap crowd and I know you did this seminal interview with Graham Allison but not what those guys want which is the kind of us stumble along and play along with China. This is a you know this is a direct confrontation with

China to say we're not going to take it anymore. You've been an economic war with us and we're going to reassert us.

Your question about how they ingratiate themselves  They're the guys who wrote the biggest checks. They wrote checks to the universities they wrote checks they've essentially bought off the City of London, in Wall Street and the corporations you know.  I say this in a sense of kind of anger. The the great investment banks in London and in in New York became the Investor Relations Department for this regime okay?

  In the pursuit of profits.

 In the total  pursuit of profits, And corporations became their lobbyists when Li Hu, deputy came to the United States a bout four weeks ago, when they had this kind of last round are trying to put something together than a trade deal, there wasn't much going on,  but he sent his deputy in a small contingent to see Stephen douche and the guys at Treasury. They went to the very first stop, they made was to the day before they went to Treasury. They stopped and they had a meeting with I think it was fifteen or twenty a large corporations the heads of government affairs.  and I think the president's not the CEOs because the guy wasn't high enough and he basically said hey boys you have a problem right and you have to figure out how to help us fix it okay another thing they had you know Wang Qishan  announced this kind of financial advisory pane.

Being on their back foot by the Trump strategy.they kind of said hey we need a financial advisory panel to help us understand what the United States wants and what the United States needs and it was named you know Paulson and Schwartzman

and all you know all these characters.  And it's interesting when they need somebody to kind of come over and you know help intermediate with the United States. they go to the same guys have

been profiting on this.

My understanding is that people came back and said hey the ung you know the UN General Assembly is happening. Its Opera season in New York my schedules is full and and Wang QiShan said hey boys I don't think you're listening. We're having a meeting I want everybody show up. This is this is General Quarters.

And so know I think that I I think when we look back on this it's going to be a people are gonna be absolutely stunned when they see how the elites right of the Western democracies and the United

States went along with China and exacerbated exacerbated a situation when it was quite evident they were economic war with us 

Yeah Going back on this one issue the the way that the influence is being pushed through the corporations you know we know we at our firm know that there are several there's a couple of handfuls of corporations that each have more than a billion dollars in capital that they're trying to get back from China and they've been unable to get a dime out of China since November of 2016 when China closes capital account completely when you were in the administration did you interface with any of these companies that were going through a lot of part in the pond red tape trying to get their money out of China. Did they come  appeal to you?

 Listened the very first thing ...

Yeah I think this would be a big shocker to people. Remember when Trump won  a complete you know upset that nobody saw coming, and particuarly you have this post-war liberal democratic rules based order? Okay the Chinese have done nothing but gamed the system from day one on every set of rules the rules are what they determine

they are. yeah okay and nobody calls them on it because everybody think s they're too weak, and so in the corporation's I think I think...

Are the corporations afraid to call them on it?

Absolutely 100%. because they know if they say that we can' t get our money out they shall be shut down?

 Shut down  

There's a quid pro quo 

Shut down shut down there's absolutely fear it. I xxx look at when they came back on this whole, by the way on the entire situation with the tariffs ,and tariffs is just not about tariffs and not about protectionism. That's why Trump 's done it at such a

scale. Remember before Trump got here, people talking a bout 25-30 billion dollars of tariffs. It is like, oh my God, that's so huge. Trump's program is a half a trillion dollars in tariffs righ to tariff goods because he knows that Chinese can't respond,

Correct!

and here's why they can't respond. People in the United States have to understand one thing. The Chinese look at us as a tributary State. That let me explain that China's been around for 4,000 years, right? They've had good runs and they've had bad runs, okay?  But one thing they know and the reason they're still organized as a nation over four thousand years, right they know how to handle allies. They know how to handle bad guys okay? Now what they've done is they got this system called barbarian management and they know how to manage barbarians.  The way they manage the barbarians is they take the leaders of the barbarians and they give them a taste of the good life. And you're going to be you're going to be something special you're going to get a special deal. Now what happens back into the tributary state is whatever happens that's your problem okay, So you remember in the United States what they have done for 25 and 30 years is played us as a barbarian State. Barbarian management, okay they incentivize our elites and our elites de-industrialized particularly the Upper Midwes of this country.  It's the reason Donald Trump's president. 

The audience should understand one thing is important is that you know JD Vance the great guy from Yale who wrote hillbilly allergies is the best sociological study of the Trump voter and it was JD Vance who told me says hey those studies that come out of MIT and Harvard show that there's a direct correlation between the factories of left for China, the jobs are left with them in the opioid crisis.

 It's actually logic. 

 It's not about tariffs what this is about is human dignity and self worth. Those factories went.  Wall Street made the money the corporation's benefit from it for lower cost and devil catch the hind most on the workers and so this is what Trump is kind of totally reversed now. What China seizes has is we're a tributary state. We send them natural resources, soy beans beef cattle, Boeing Airlines, and Apple products. Oh, excuse me we don't send Being Airlines and Apple products. You know why because they forced Boeing to do a joint venture and they forced Apple to make its  products over there.  So all we, we're Jamestown to their Great Britain okay? That's why the tariffs at the scale that Trump put them up at. They can 't respond to okay?

What's interesting is, let's assume we put 25 per cent on five hundred twenty billion, we're literally talking about a little over a hundred billion dollars 

yes,

I know that's a lot of money (yes) but our economy's 19 trillion, (yes) it's still not that functionally meaningful to us in my opinion, (Yes) but I do think it's a leveling of a field to your point.

It's converging

They've been fighting a trade war with us since 2001 and we just haven't fought back 

Okay the average compounded growth of the United States of America from 1946, the end of World War two to 2000 was 3.5%, okay?  It's the reason we became a superpower that economic engine that was unlocked and grew every year three and a half percent, through good times and bad on average ( yeah )  since China joined the World Trade Organization sure that's when they joined they got most favored nation, the growth of the United States is 1.9 percent o k 1.9 percent and there's a lot of factors that but the central beating heart of it is China. 

That's what because we deindustrialized which Center we sent our manufacturing  over there. Yes the tariffs in and of themselves on a nominal number an absolute number,  are not huge but we look at the convergence of everything, what Trump has done is said hey we 're at economic war and we're going to hit back over there, We're gonna hit back with a 301s to stop the force technology transfers. We're gonna put these tariffs into the scale they've never seen before. We're gonna have the ability if we so desire to liquidate companies like ZTE to basically cut them off from their component parts in the West. They'll be out of business in 90 days. Also the new things about investments about these limitation and investments at the surface.

The CFIUS Reform.

 The CFIUS Reform. that people are talking about. You bring all forces of government together on that and the stopping of intellectual property you have something. What Trump is done and this is why NAFTA was so important. You know people mocked and ridiculed Trump.  

There's a book out called Fear that Gary Cohen the president Goldman Sachs you know great Goldman Sachs . The book opens where he's taken the NAFTA deal right early on in the deal on Korea.  He actually takes him off the desk because in his judgment right the president wasn't smart enough to understand what he was doing. 

Well here's what Trump's done. The new NAFTA deal that he's he's created is basically setting up a geostrategic manufacturing base to counter East Asia okay and Japan is is very quickly going to be part of that, a bilateral deal not some TPP deal or just one among many. A direct bilateral deal with Japan as a partner. We've got one with Korea we're updating and then the EU Juncker has already told Trump his all right already indicated that they're gonna be a part of this too.  

What Donald Trump has done in less than two years against the second law of thermodynamics right the immutable law of the rise of China (  right ) What he's done is reorient the entire world' supply Chain away from China and this is going to have economic growth opportunities that are going to be incredible. And he's done that kind of  single-handedly against against the fighting of the the corporatist Lobby, the fighting of the Wall Street Investor Relations Department etc.. So that's what I think it's really heroic 

It's that policy is one that it's interesting at the timing if you look at just the let's say the the economic laws of China were already slowing down before w e decided to fight back. It just so happens to be that this pushback from a tariff or whether the most elegant idea was the board adjustable tax, which is  immediately killed by you and I both know.

 I love, I love that one.

 that was perfect in my opinion now 

by the way John I I am I am a huge believer that and I'm you know Paul Ryan I've had our differences' when I first he first walked me through that I said that 's the solution exactly that's a solution 

 It's kind of an egalitarian way of going at it.

 I think I think and we all know I get crushed (yeah) p> I think that that is something that should be brought back up in and very quickly in future years.

We could do away with tariffs if we imposed a border adjustment tax.

Well, by the way, let's talk about tariffs for a second. President Trump-- remember the G7 when he was lectured by his betters-- Merkel and McCrone on the first day you know about this whole thing

about tariffs right? He came back the next day for breakfast and what Trump you know what Trump told told the in the g7, he said okay I thought about it last night how about this no tariffs absolutely no ta riffs, but no subsidies (yeah)

People have to realize that the White House put out this document, I think, it's over two months ago now. The 50 things that China is doing in its

economic war with us. It's kind of its kind of what  > That's the deal you stop that we're all good. When you look at that it's not just a tariffs, it 's it's it's the investment in state- owned industries. Remember they had..

Free land, free electricity.

Free  land,  Look at what they've done with steel aluminum throughout the world. Look at you have done with ship building.  You could go every heavy industry. They've got it they've got it at Western Europe and they've got it at the United States and they continue to do that.

Purposefully 

Purposely and they're also by the way, there 's ZTE showed you this.  They have to create a thing as some number of 11 million jobs a year. They're under enormous internal economic pressure to create those jobs. They can't afford to have 150,000 high value-added jobs as ZTE just go away.

Same thing with the steel. They' re kind of

caught on the wheel now. They're the first to admit they have to keep adding capacity  so I think that that's why the Chinese model and all this happy talk that come s from the West yeah about the Chinese model when you really look at it, I know you are one of the world's handful of experts I think it looked at it it looks at the numbers as they really are an d not what people hope they are and not how they're spun by China because every number comes out of China to me has to be questioned verified you know trust but verify. It has to be questioned verified and then verified again. You've got to get a belt and suspenders and that's why I think we're we may be hurdling to another financial

crisis driven by this financial model of

China that can't withstand you know

can't stand up on its own right. 

Well the good news about that is if we're righ

about China we're right about there bill incredible bill the reckless build of credit coupled with the fact their economy slowing down coupled with the

size of their banking system their GDP- if we're right a bout all those things the good news is their banks aren't inextricably linked ours the way that

ours were to Europe and Asia is back during the our financial crisis.

They're not they're not but you use t he word

they're reckless, and I think that this is you know this is what upsets me about the lack of accountability and responsibility by the world's elites. We

just went through the worst financial crisis in history, Not one CEO went to jail and not any body significantly gave up any equity, Okay? 

What they did is basically inflate, no people got to remember on September 18th of 2008 when Bernanke and Paulson walked into the Oval Office with Bush and he sent him up to Capitol Hill, the balance sheet of the Federal Reserve was 880 billion dollars. On the day that Donald Trump took the oath of office on January 20th the 2017 it was four point five trillion dollars. All we did in in in the Bank of England ECB Bank of Japan did the same thing.  

and th PBOC

 PBOC. What they did to save the elites was to turn on the spigots of liquidity.  So if you owned assets, real estate, stocks, or intellectual property, you've had the greatest 10-year run in history.  If you're a working class schmendrick, wages are flat. The whole burden of it this is what's unfair and this is where the anger that's driving the populist movement. The whole burden comes down on the little guy to finance these deficits with his taxes,

That's right 

and then his kids get sent everywhere in the world to defend this. That's what's got to stop you use a word reckless it is reckless disregard what the elites have done this time, because all they've done Chinese banks what the American banking system has 19 trillion dollars of assets on it.

 And I would respectfully submit and you're ten times smarter than me on this,  I would respectfully submit that ll of those assets are not good okay? Maybe let's say ten percent or more could be written off today. That's the American banking system. The Chinese banking says that things has 49 trillion dollars of assets. Correct me if I' m

wrong I think 45 trade have been put on

the books since 2008.  

This is completely reckless now thank God they're not interconnected through the Swift system

with the rest of the banks 

Or through derivatives  the reason is-- and this is another tell-- because none of the investment banks or none of the guys want to say,  Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa we can't hook up with China right because they all stop themselves from doing it, they 're all limited their exposure to understand when it implodes they don't wanna be they don't be taken down in the first couple of minutes. That being said, those banks are going to implode no body can put those kind of assets on okay and have and have a great banking system here.

This is a total and complete sham, and in the Economist, and the Financial Times of London, all the elites, all the conference's they  have, you know you had Richard Haass on this morning on Morning? Joe Richard Haass from the council foreign relation and all he's doing is beating up Mike Pence and Donald Trump from  Pence's speech list. You know what he's saying, you say hey all my Chinese all my Chinese colleagues all my buddies in China they're telling me they don't know what

the United States wants. 

You know they kept you know they came over here they they want a deal and they want to be our partner but they we keep moving the goalposts that is that is reckless for him to say,  that he fully understands what the issues are okay and he sits

there on a show, a general news show in the morning that you know basic voters watch, he starts putting this stuff into their minds is unacceptable,